Big Red Flix 31: The Dark Knight Rises (Spoilers!)

Welcome back for another episode of Big Red Flix, BigRedBarrel.com’s movie podcast. There are spoilers ahead as Dave, Jitterbug and Yoshifett discuss the end of Chis Nolan’s Batman trilogy, The Dark Knight Rises.

Check back next time because the gang will be discussing the summer popcorn flick, True Lies.

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  1. spikeychris

    Good listening as always:

    On the part about Robin I take it this way.  In the first two films Batmans “sidekick/helper/whatever you want to kill him” is Gordon.  In the dark knight rises its Robin but you don’t know hes called Robin until the very end.  However he takes over the role of helping Batman that Gordon had in the first two films (Gordon is actually quite minor in TDKR compared to the other two).  Him being named as Robin I think is more of a throwaway comment for the fans I think the whole point of him finding the batcave at the end is not that he is batmans sidekick but now that he has to take on the role that Bruce has left Gotham will always need a beacon of hope when it is needed and so Bruce is passing the torch on.

    On the two boats in the dark knight and how the people act in the dark knight rises.  In the dark knight I think the whole point is that the people don’t want to do it because they have hope that Batman will save them.  In the Dark Knight rises they know batman has been defeated and that Bane is now in control.  Also there is a big difference between the people confined on the boat and millions of people who can get off the island but if they try they will blow up the island.  The people in the boat can’t get out the people in Gotham now can.

    The scene at the end with Alfred I think works very well and has to be included in the film.  You could do the film without it and people would walk away feeling pretty bad about the fact Bruce died.  If they did a scene with Alfred seeing people he thinks are Bruce you would come out of the film completely crushed as you would feel sorry for Alfred as well as feeling bad about Bruce being dead.

  2. You wouldn’t have to come out feeling crushed. That’d be up to you. If you see Alfred looking happy, and then show the back of a man at a cafe that looks like Bruce, then you could walk away thinking whatever you want.

    As for the boats, I don’t agree with you at all. If the point was supposed to be that the people on the boat were waiting for Batman to save them, then one of them should’ve said something like, “Maybe Batman will save us.”

  3. Badhaggis

    I was very suprised that Yoshifett actually wasn’t ultra cynical about it .

     

    This is going to be quite spoilerific so look away if you don’t want it spoiled.

     

    I liked the film overall, but it’s hardly a classic (okay that’s a bit mean, it’s a nice movie but no where near inception). The film somewhat lost me half way , I really liked Bane as a character, but hated the final plot twist about Bruce’s girlfriend being Rasgoul or whoever’s Daughter, as it was unnecessary. Bane’s death was silly, I didn’t particularly like the character of Cat women, the fact that she was coming back was obvious. Inspector Gordon turning into a Ninja bad ass didn’t really jell with his character. 

     

    I liked the introduction of Robin, but loathed the fact that he magically knew batman’s identity. I didn’t mind the whole police situation, but the fact that the bomb was going to go off no matter what meant that any interesting moral dilemmas were gotten rid off, ie is Anarchy better than Vigilantism, is Absolute freedom better than obeying law due to fear of Batman. 

     

    I appreciate that you are supposed to have invested emotions in it, but several strange ( to me anyway) choices kept me kind of in disbelief, I liked the mob rule parts and felt they added a lot to the storyline, but there is never any doubt about who is the good guys and who is the bad, which could come from a conservative bias, I don’t know.

     

    Overall I did like it, it’s much better than the normal summer blockbuster, but it’s one I wouldn’t watch again in a hurry, maybe around a 75% – 80% for me.

  4. So Tacos or Lasagna?

  5. Dave said
    So Tacos or Lasagna?

    I’m with Jitterbug. Lasagna all the way. Also, I’ve got the solution for ambulatory lasagna degustation – I present the lasagna muffin.

    Image Enlarger

    Yeah.

  6. Yoshifett

    Prediction: Jitterbug will hate TDKR

  7. Badhaggis

    Lasagna is an abomination, it’s the Antichrist in a pasta wrapping, it is quite literary the worst thing to come out of Italy ( apart from maybe Fascism).

  8. zombiesauerkraut

    I’m not crazy about the way they do the cafe scene at the end, but it has to be in there. Nolan’s Batman movies are not art house pieces made for the elitist movie critics, they’re made for Joe six-pack, but are generally good enough to be enjoyed by the elitists as well. Obviously, Nolan didn’t want to leave it up to the viewer to feel crushed or not, and he made the right choice. My little bro would not be satisfied that Bruce Wayne lives, unless he literally sees him. This take on Batman has been so dark, to the point where people thought Bruce could actually die in the end, which is awesome. But ultimately, the point of a super hero movie is to convey a clear message of hope and compassion.

    The movie is pretty good, but when I compare it to Begins and Dark Night, it doesn’t hold up for me. Anne Hathaway showed great potential of being a sassy, sexy Catwoman (like Michelle Pfeiffer in Returns), but very soon into the movie her attitude is toned down and she loses that special spark. The stupid ‘heir’ twist (of which there are like three in this movie) removes all that is monstrous about Bane, changing him into a misunderstood, compassionate human being who’s been led astray. Bane’s death feels equally cheap as Catwoman totally deus ex machinas Batman’s ass.

    It is implied that Robin will take over the job as Batman and the name is obviously just an homage to the original character. It’s obvious because his real name is “Robin”; if he’d been Dick Grayson when he finds the cave, viewers would be confused about which hero he is supposed to become: Batman or Robin. And the cafe scene tells us Bruce Wayne is done as Batman.

    Lasagna, no contest! But tacos are easier to make, so I have them more often. Good show.

  9. JLV

    Urgh. People need to learn what that hard to spell latin phrase means. Just because it was abrupt, it does not make it deus ex machina. It was clearly foreshadowed and quite obvious that it would happen. Everything in this movie was obvious to me, yet I was still kept enthralled the whole movie. I knew everything that would happen, yet I enjoyed it immensely. Bane (Bain?) Was great, scarecrow cameo was great, I thought talia was just fine, and I didn’t think it took anything away from Bane. Despite KNOWING he would live, I still teared up when Batman flew away and in front of the graves and whatnot.

    People who say that batman begins is better than this (someone said so upthread somewhere) should really go watch batman begins. Obviously movie enjoyment is subjective, but batman begins is pretty clearly several steps down from TDKR.

    Also, I agree with Yoshi that I would not have enjoyed a rehash of the joker. I like bane a lot, I actually found him scarier as a villain than the joker, though I enjoyed the joker more. Bane terrified me. Joker made me love him.

  10. Yoshifett

    JLV said
    Urgh. People need to learn what that hard to spell latin phrase means. Just because it was abrupt, it does not make it deus ex machina. It was clearly foreshadowed and quite obvious that it would happen.

    This. So much this.

  11. zombiesauerkraut

    Your failure to observe my verbification of the phrase speaks to the reason you misunderstand my use of it. Though it may not classify 100% as a deus ex machina, I chose to describe it as such as it captures the essence of what I dislike about this scene. Batman has been stabbed and Bane is upon him, about to smash his head; how will Batman get out of this one? His girlfriend is going to save him. “Foreshadowed” or not, to be Batman’s saving grace is a privilege that should be exclusive to Robin or Alfred, and a very rare one at that. Admittedly, this scene exists to reintroduce Catwoman to the action and establish some kind of connection between her and Batman, and not to compensate for any failing of the plot. But it denies the hero the chance to escape doom through his own capabilities, a literary device discussed several times on the show which, surprisingly, has yet to be mentioned.

    Begins is the first movie I watched after Rises, though sadly I am still eagerly awaiting enlightenment. I really wanted to love this movie, but it fails to move me like the first two did. It would appear that all of the reasons TDKR didn’t do it for me have had the reverse effect on your enjoyment of it. While I am inclined to suggest your opinion suffers from bias, I’d rather concede that you gain more from loving this movie than hating it, so I wish you much viewing pleasure till kingdom come.

  12. Badhaggis

    zombiesauerkraut said
     

    “Though it may not classify 100% as a deus ex machina, “

     

    It’s not really a Deus Ex Machina in any sense of the word, the charactor had been introduced at the start, therefore wasn’t a new addition.

     

    I would have preferred if Batman had died personally, even if they had made “Robin” into the new Batman. I’m a bit bored by the generic happy ending at the moment, there isn’t any tension because studios and producers refuse to kill of the main charactors, hence the popularity of game of thrones in which central characters die with alarming regularity. 

  13. Yoshifett

    zombiesauerkraut said
    Your failure to observe my verbification of the phrase speaks to the reason you misunderstand my use of it. Though it may not classify 100% as a deus ex machina, I chose to describe it as such as it captures the essence of what I dislike about this scene. Batman has been stabbed and Bane is upon him, about to smash his head; how will Batman get out of this one? His girlfriend is going to save him. “Foreshadowed” or not, to be Batman’s saving grace is a privilege that should be exclusive to Robin or Alfred, and a very rare one at that. Admittedly, this scene exists to reintroduce Catwoman to the action and establish some kind of connection between her and Batman, and not to compensate for any failing of the plot. But it denies the hero the chance to escape doom through his own capabilities, a literary device discussed several times on the show which, surprisingly, has yet to be mentioned.

    Begins is the first movie I watched after Rises, though sadly I am still eagerly awaiting enlightenment. I really wanted to love this movie, but it fails to move me like the first two did. It would appear that all of the reasons TDKR didn’t do it for me have had the reverse effect on your enjoyment of it. While I am inclined to suggest your opinion suffers from bias, I’d rather concede that you gain more from loving this movie than hating it, so I wish you much viewing pleasure till kingdom come.

    Jesus, you’re more condescending than I am!

  14. zombiesauerkraut

    There was nothing but sincerity in that post, form the bottom of my scrote…to the top of my scrote =)

  15. Yoshifett

    zombiesauerkraut said
    There was nothing but sincerity in that post, form the bottom of my scrote…to the top of my scrote =)

    It was meant as a compliment. I’m always taken back when someone manages to out-pretention me!

  16. zombiesauerkraut

    I know it was a compliment. And I graciously accepted while paying homage using an ancient Brown show quote. Didn’t you see the little latina-con at the end? =) =)

  17. frawlzfans

    This is the second time that JB said blowing up the criminals boat is the logical and right choice however it is not the right choice, the right choice is to blow up neither boat. I agree the logical choice is to blow up the criminals but its not the right choice. 

  18. frawlzfans said
    This is the second time that JB said blowing up the criminals boat is the logical and right choice however it is not the right choice, the right choice is to blow up neither boat. I agree the logical choice is to blow up the criminals but its not the right choice. 

    Yes it IS the right choice. I know we love to live in magical fairy land of super heroes and super villains, but if a real world scenario played out where a group of 200 innocent people (including lots of women and children) are going to die versus 200 criminal men dying, the RIGHT choice is to save the innocent people. Would you have stood on the Titanic and told everyone to stay on board until Batman saved you because it wouldn’t be RIGHT to put just the women and children in lifeboats. This is a stupid debate. I’m not saying that people who don’t agree with me are stupid, but this is a stupid debate as there are THOUSANDS of real world scenarios that all of us would agree prove that saving the innocent is the more morale choice.

    Unless Batman can save them. :/

  19. frawlzfans

    Jitterbug said

    frawlzfans said
    This is the second time that JB said blowing up the criminals boat is the logical and right choice however it is not the right choice, the right choice is to blow up neither boat. I agree the logical choice is to blow up the criminals but its not the right choice. 

    Yes it IS the right choice. I know we love to live in magical fairy land of super heroes and super villains, but if a real world scenario played out where a group of 200 innocent people (including lots of women and children) are going to die versus 200 criminal men dying, the RIGHT choice is to save the innocent people. Would you have stood on the Titanic and told everyone to stay on board until Batman saved you because it wouldn’t be RIGHT to put just the women and children in lifeboats. This is a stupid debate. I’m not saying that people who don’t agree with me are stupid, but this is a stupid debate as there are THOUSANDS of real world scenarios that all of us would agree prove that saving the innocent is the more morale choice.

    Unless Batman can save them. :/

    No regardless if there criminals or not killing its never right and I agree the RIGHT choice is to save the innocent people however NOT at the cost of killing 200 criminals regardless of there crimes. Also I respect you a lot JB but your Titanic analogy is stupid. Its not a stupid debate human beings are human beings regardless of the crimes and killing them is not “right” its wrong. 

  20. Believe me, I’m the most liberal minded person you’re likely to come across, but it’s jejune to think that there are never instances where lives MUST be lost. We can lament that fact, but that doesn’t make it wrong. Granted, I can’t come up with an identical scenario in real life where a superhero is fighting a super villain while people’s lives hang in the balance, so the Titanic analogy is as good as it gets. We have to look at the possible end scenario to determine right from wrong: In your argument, the people on the boat make the “right” choice by not blowing up the prisoner’s boat. So, let’s fast forward and pretend that Batman didn’t stop Joker in just the nick-of-magic-movie-time. Both boats explode, and everyone dies. We can argue all we want about if the Joker did the dastardly deed of rigging both boats to blow, but that’s not the scenario they’re presented with (and I don’t think the movie mentions that either). So, if all the people on each boat made your “right” decision, then both boats blow up and everyone is dead. If one of the boats makes the “wrong” decision (in your mind), then half of the people live. 

    So, let’s get this straight, these are the outcomes we’re looking at from your point of view in this end scenario if a superhero hadn’t stepped in at the last minute:

    RIGHT DECISION: Everyone dies.

    WRONG DECISION: All innocent men, women, and children live. A boat filled with criminals explodes. 

    Let’s take this out of the super hero movie context and play make believe, because I think it will better explain my point. Someone hands you two detonators and puts a gun to your head. One detonator will destroy Los Angeles, one will destroy New York. If you refuse to push one, you will be shot in the head and they will push both buttons, destroying both cities. What do you do?

    The RIGHT decision in this instance is to choose to destroy Los Angeles since it has a lower population than New York. The WRONG decision is to sit back and wait for Batman to save you.

  21. zombiesauerkraut

    I think, as long as you’re not hurting anyone, it’s okay to kill whoever you want.

  22. frawlzfans

    Jitterbug said
    Believe me, I’m the most liberal minded person you’re likely to come across, but it’s jejune to think that there are never instances where lives MUST be lost. We can lament that fact, but that doesn’t make it wrong. Granted, I can’t come up with an identical scenario in real life where a superhero is fighting a super villain while people’s lives hang in the balance, so the Titanic analogy is as good as it gets. We have to look at the possible end scenario to determine right from wrong: In your argument, the people on the boat make the “right” choice by not blowing up the prisoner’s boat. So, let’s fast forward and pretend that Batman didn’t stop Joker in just the nick-of-magic-movie-time. Both boats explode, and everyone dies. We can argue all we want about if the Joker did the dastardly deed of rigging both boats to blow, but that’s not the scenario they’re presented with (and I don’t think the movie mentions that either). So, if all the people on each boat made your “right” decision, then both boats blow up and everyone is dead. If one of the boats makes the “wrong” decision (in your mind), then half of the people live. 

    So, let’s get this straight, these are the outcomes we’re looking at from your point of view in this end scenario if a superhero hadn’t stepped in at the last minute:

    RIGHT DECISION: Everyone dies.

    WRONG DECISION: All innocent men, women, and children live. A boat filled with criminals explodes. 

    Let’s take this out of the super hero movie context and play make believe, because I think it will better explain my point. Someone hands you two detonators and puts a gun to your head. One detonator will destroy Los Angeles, one will destroy New York. If you refuse to push one, you will be shot in the head and they will push both buttons, destroying both cities. What do you do?

    The RIGHT decision in this instance is to choose to destroy Los Angeles since it has a lower population than New York. The WRONG decision is to sit back and wait for Batman to save you.

    In your scenario I would absolutely refuse to become judge, jury and executioner I have no right to judge millions of people and chose who lives and who dies I have no right. Yes LOGICALLY you would blow up Los Angeles but its not the RIGHT decision you’re boiling down human beings into statistics and numbers. 

  23. And you’re murdering millions of people based on your bizarrely rigid morale code. Sorry, but you’re wrong here.

  24. StinkPalm

    I finally saw Batman on Friday and have been holding onto this podcast for a couple weeks waiting to listen. I’m a big fan of the Flix. I love listening to Dave, Yoshi, and Jitterbug talk about movies. Listening to your podcast gets me to rewatch movies I haven’t seen in years and also gets me to watch movies I’ve never seen, so I can follow what’s going on in the show. The Dark Knight Rises show was good (I listened to it twice)…but I gotta say it was a little disappointing. Don’t kill me for saying this, but it just doesn’t feel right when one of the hosts didn’t see the movie. Jitterbug really couldn’t have much of an opinion on something he didn’t see. He was only going off of what he heard and how he thinks he would feel if he saw it. Like I said before…I love BRB Flix, but I don’t think you guys should record a show unless you all have seen the movie.

     

    What was the reason that Jitterbug didn’t see the movie? Was it because of the fact that the movie was completely spoiled for him? When are you going to see it Jitterbug?

    You guys hinted at doing a show on The Dark Knight…maybe just wait till Rises comes out on Blu and then do a 20 hour 12 part episode on the whole trilogy.

     

    Nobody mentioned this but there’s a part where Batman and Selina Kyle are together on a rooftop. Batman is talking to Selina Kyle when all of a sudden she disappears. Batman, in his Batman voice, says something along the lines of “ah, so that’s how that feels”. This was supposed to be funny but am I the only one that thought it was so goofy that Bruce used the Batman voice to say this when no one was around to hear him? Who was he disguising his real voice from? I don’t know why but I think I would have liked it if he was so thrown off by her disappearance that he said that in his Bruce voice.

     

    Also…here’s something kind of funny. My friend told me about this right after we saw the movie friday. The Rise or Bane chant sounds like they are saying “FISH FISH PASTA PASTA” lol

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..9bGkG2QYjU

  25. Lukas Heinzel

    I still dont get who anybody could think that Batman would die and then Dave even said that in 99% of the Superman movies the hero doesnt die and then he doesnt….which point did you try to prove? The ending was even spoilered way in the middle , when alfred babbled around about that moment. How could you betray yourself in not assuming that this would be the end? But everyone has his own opinion, so thats totally ok how you think.

     

    Just dont assume anyone does like you do, maybe you dont i just wanted to state that.

  26. zombiesauerkraut

    Lukas Heinzel said
    I still dont get who anybody could think that Batman would die … The ending was even spoilered way in the middle , when alfred babbled around about that moment. How could you betray yourself in not assuming that this would be the end?

     

    It’s difficult, in retrospect, not to automatically assume something was obvious foreshadowing, just because you already know what happens. This one line is part of a conversation that is entirely about Alfred’s fear that Bruce Wayne will die. If Batman did die in the end, everyone would be talking about how that very same scene was obviously foreshadowing of his death.

    I think the reason why some people never thought for a second that he’d die is because its a superhero movie and the hero never dies. I was 90% sure he would make it, but if any hero would ever die, it would have been in this movie. Nolan has directed these films in such a way that the viewer feels anything could happen, for instance when he kills Rachel Dawes, not in the first movie, but the second.

    I took the cafe line, not so much as saying something about the ending, as foreshadowing does, but rather that the ending is nodding back to that line. Obviously it was no coincidence that Bruce ended up exactly in front of Alfred at the cafe; he deliberately went there to let him know that he made it and that this story has a happy ending…just like this post. Ooh, yeah, that’s the spot!

  27. Lukas Heinzel

    That last sentencences….true art.

     

    Still disappointed from the movie though, weak characters and a weak story. Not bad…just weak.

  28. Uncurtailed

    Lasagne is better than Tacos. I will go to the mat on that one.

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